The Truth About That Car You Just Bought? What is "Truth"?

"SteveLehto" (stevelehto)
08/14/2014 at 13:00 • Filed to: None

You're driving home from the dealer with that New Car smell wafting about you. The dealer didn't tell you that the car you just bought had been taken on a destructive joyride a week ago. And he didn't break the law.

I get a lot of grief for telling stories !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , so here is a story where no laws are broken by any dealers or salesmen. Our hypothetical dealer is in the state of Michigan.

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You walk the lot and see a late model used car (hence, the "New Car" smell). The salesman tells you it still has the remainder of its manufacturer's warranty and has been on the lot for a week. He knows for a fact it is a one-owner vehicle. Beyond that, he knows nothing but the price. He notes that it is a "Program Car," according to the paperwork, but is not sure what that means. You buy it.

A few days later as you are detailing it, you notice that there is broken window glass – those little cubes that look like large grains of salt – under the seats. There is a lot of it. You begin going over the car with the proverbial fine-toothed comb. Your friend who is a bodyshop expert helps you. He points out that someone has done quality work but the glass – ALL OF IT – has been replaced. The bumpers have also been replaced completely. Interestingly, he notices that the tires and wheels are not the same ones that came with the car. Not sure how he knows that but assume it is true for our story.

He then notices that there has been some body work done on the car. Several panels have been repainted. He estimates the repairs probably cost $750. He also points out that the in-dash audio system has been replaced. Again, they did a good job of it but it's not the one that came with the car from the factory.

Understandably, you go back to the dealer and find the sales manager. After explaining what you have discovered, he pulls the deal folder. He flips through it and find a lengthy police report: "Wow. Your car was on our lot for one day when a band of hoodlums, hopped up on drugs, busted the window out and stole it. They took it for a joyride and as they drove around huffing Glade, they kicked the rest of the windows out of it. Have you ever heard of the weird thing teenagers are doing with !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ?" He points to the police report which lists "soiled, alcohol-infused tampons" among the items found in the backseat. "Anyhow, when we recovered it, it was up on blocks, missing its window glass, wheels and tires, bumpers, stereo and it had a bit of body damage that cost $750 to fix. We made the repairs, cleaned it up and sold it to you."

As every organ in your body begins manufacturing hate he adds, "Oh, and the car was a rental vehicle. We bought it from [Hertz/Avis/Enterprise/PickOneItReallyDoesn'tMatter] and they were the 'one-owner' you were told about."

Now, the question: Can anything be done legally to force the dealer to buy this car back based on these facts?

In Michigan and many other states, NO. There was a time when dealers would have a situation like this and consider disclosing the true history of the car to buyers. Prices plummeted when they did. So, most dealers chose to not disclose. Fancy-pants attorneys came along and sued claiming it was somehow "wrong" to not tell the buyer what he was really buying.

After having a few too many lawsuits like that go south, the dealers came up with an idea: Go to Lansing and ask the legislature to pass a law making the foregoing completely legal. And the legislature did. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . It goes so far as to coin the term "Program Car" for what you and I would call a late model former rental . But no one wants to buy a former rental – at least not as much as they'd like to buy a "Program Car." Got it? Up is Down, Black is White. Rental is Program.

So long as the damages to the vehicle are limited to the items I described above and the dollar value of body damage doesn't exceed $750, the dealers do not have to disclose any of it. As you'd expect, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! have been passed in !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

And I hate to get all math on you here but guess what happens when the joyride-wreck has $1,000 in damages? The dealer takes it into its own bodyshop, does the repairs and bills $750 for the repair The bodyshop loses $250 but that is way less than the dealer would lose if forced to disclose the body damage at $1,000.

I will point out one small item from this story where our buyer screwed up: If he had looked closely at the title to the vehicle before he bought it – the previous title – it would have shown the owner as being a rental car company. But in the blizzard of paperwork you see at the sales vortex (often the five minutes before closing which somehow is the only time they can get you in to seal the deal) these things can be overlooked.

Want to crazy this up a notch? Remove the rental history from the facts above and make the car BRAND NEW. A dealer in Michigan can sit quietly and sell you a formerly damaged NEW vehicle without disclosing - based on this law - so long as the damages are limited to those above. I just did the hypothetical with the rental history so I could run the table with all the possibilities.

!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! Inspect. Remember that in the grand scheme of things, people dislike lawyers (zing!) and car salesmen but they dislike politicians even more. Now you know why. At least in states like Michigan.

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(Photo credit: Steve Lehto)

Steve Lehto has been practicing consumer protection and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! for 23 years in Michigan. He taught Consumer Protection at the University of Detroit Mercy School of Law for ten years and wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . He also wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! both published by Chicago Review Press. Follow him on Twitter : !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

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DISCUSSION (100)

Chteelers > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 13:33

f he had looked closely at the title to the vehicle before he bought it – the previous title – it would have shown the owner as being a rental car company.

Checking the carfax and doing a thorough inspection (incl looking for respray marks inside body panels) would protect against the situation you describe. Also, how is this any different than buying from a individual seller? When selling my car, I don't have to tell the purchaser anything about what kind of damage may have happened while I owned it. You buy it "as is". So do your homework, and buy from a respected dealer. They have more to lose by making some shady sell than some fly-by-night used car lot.

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 13:35

A coworker had a VW dealership try and cover up the fact that the car he had ordered had been damaged by hail while on a storage lot. There had been a bad hailstorm and he drove by the storage lot daily, so when the same car as the one he ordered showed up the day they phoned him and said it would be ready the next day, he was pretty sure his car was on that lot. Cue hailstorm. The day after the hailstorm he gets a call saying there has been a slight delay but it will be ready by the end of the week. He heads down to the dealership and tells his salesperson he wants to see the car in person, or he is canceling everything. After some attempted misdirection it is revealed that his car HAD been in the hailstorm, and they weren't going to tell him. He proceeded to find a similar, undamaged car on the lot (slightly more optioned) and walks into the sales managers office, tells him what had happened, and basically said "you can give me ____ car with ____ VIN for the same price as the one I ordered in, or I can scream from the rooftops what you guys tried to do." He got the car.

SteveLehto > Chteelers
08/14/2014 at 13:43

This happens all the time at "respectable" car lots. They are the ones who lobbied for the bill. The scary part is that they can take one of these cars and sell it to you as "NEW" and there is no way for you to know without doing a thorough inspection and who does that on a New car?

And a CARFAX would NOT reveal any of this. Why would it?

SteveLehto > Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again.
08/14/2014 at 13:46

A good result. And notice how vigilant he had to be. The scary part is that it probably would not have been illegal for them to repair the car and deliver it to him without telling (if he is in one of the states with this law).

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 13:51

We are in Calgary, Canada so I'm not sure on the legality but I couldn't believe they tried to lie like that.

SteveLehto > Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again.
08/14/2014 at 13:54

The story above is a conglomeration of cases I've had. Before this law was passed, I had all kinds of crazy things done to cars which weren't disclosed to my clients. After, it's only gotten worse (since they don't legally have to disclose anymore). I am curious about the laws in other countries.

Diesel > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 14:09

Not all rental cars were beaten to death. If the car drives fine, who cares what happened to it before? It's like going to a public restroom, I know I'm not the first to use it, but I like to pretend.

StevenG > Diesel
08/14/2014 at 14:12

No, but enough of them were that it drives the value of a former rental down. If they are honest about it and give you a price commensurate to its lower value fine.

As Du Volant > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 14:12

Carfax does show if the car was previously a rental.

Diesel > StevenG
08/14/2014 at 14:12

I agree.

StevenG > Diesel
08/14/2014 at 14:14

That was a sudden edit.

I think you might want a STD test.

StevenG > As Du Volant
08/14/2014 at 14:14

Sure, but it will not show the damage that was not reported.

StevenG > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 14:15

Does the law really allow them to call any amount of damage $750 if that is all they pay their captive shop?
I would have assumed it would not be quite so obviously corrupt.

n54 & s38 > Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again.
08/14/2014 at 14:16

What dealership? I'm guessing it was in the NW somewhere...

Diesel > StevenG
08/14/2014 at 14:19

Yeah I realized how bad that was and didn't want to don a flame suit. Also, it happens when you date strippers.

Miata2016GT > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 14:19

In a similar scene, I purchased a new Mini Cooper way back in 2004. I factory ordered. Unknown to me, however, was that my car had been damaged in shipping or at port. Several body panels were repainted, again without disclosure, and it was undetected by me until I was trading it in on another car. The dealer did a paint thickness test, and found that the paint on the repaired panels was 3x thicker than the rest of the car. Even with my own information and a clean Carfax, I ended up losing BIG MONEY on the little POS. (I traded it in because it was one of the worst cars I have ever owned... name it, and it broke on that car. It left me stranded on the side of the road 9x)

SteveLehto > As Du Volant
08/14/2014 at 14:19

My point was that this law applies to new cars. A Carfax would not show that the car had been damaged and repaired prior to its delivery to you.

SteveLehto > Diesel
08/14/2014 at 14:20

Keep in mind that Fleet cars are often built to different (i.e., "lower") standards than regular cars. I'll take a non-fleet car over a fleet car any day of the week if all else is equal.

StevenG > Diesel
08/14/2014 at 14:20

Yeah, I was just yanking your chain.

The jezebel readers would have crucified you for that one.

As Du Volant > StevenG
08/14/2014 at 14:21

Nope. And Carfax is only as good as the people reporting to it. Police reports for accidents are pretty accurate but not foolproof. And if the police never saw it and a "real" shop never touched it, there's no record.

Say someone is driving home drunk one night and slams their car into a tree. They call Cousin Bob who knows how to do body work, Bob removes the car before police arrive, and then half-assedly slaps it back together, doing a job for $1000 that should cost $5000.

What does Carfax say?

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Diesel > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 14:21

Yeah a standard fleet car typically has no options. Basically, power windows or GTFO. Also, great articles, keep them coming!

Diesel > StevenG
08/14/2014 at 14:22

With all this cross posting business, I would rather avoid the hassle. Although, I've been making PC jokes on Jezebel to ward off evil spirits.

SteveLehto > StevenG
08/14/2014 at 14:22

The law says that damages need not be reported so long as they don't exceed $750. You and I both know that if I repair it in-house, there will be a huge incentive to get the repairs to $750 or below. And who's going to prove otherwise? You could litigate if you thought the repairs ought to have been valued above $750 but then what is the transactional cost there?

SteveLehto > Miata2016GT
08/14/2014 at 14:23

And we have a winner! This is why this law is BS. Thanks for posting.

StevenG > As Du Volant
08/14/2014 at 14:23

Had that happen to me. I wrecked a car and needed a new one in a hurry while at the same time being in college and unable to car shop due to lack of transportation. A family member found a suitable car and I bought it thinking they checked it out. The car was not straight and had some poor body work done. The carfax was of course clean.

SteveLehto > Diesel
08/14/2014 at 14:24

I've also heard that they often have less sound insulation, cheaper padding in the seats and other corners have been cut to make up for the discounts given by the manufacturers to the fleet buyers. Ever wonder why that rental car sounds like a shopping car?

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > n54 & s38
08/14/2014 at 14:25

Haha excellent guess good sir, it was Northland VW if I recall

PJ > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 14:25

What's the stipulation here that allows them to count only the panel damage as "body damage" and not the replacement of bumpers?

You're obviously more the expert here than I am, and I'm sure it varies state-by-state, but one thing I wanted to note is to the naked eye that has done a lot of car searching, often times a stolen joyride with such damages ends up incurring a salvaged title, right? Which from what I understand, is generally based off overall $ damages...where in this Michigan wrinkle it seems weird that only "body damage" is considered, and even that is rather oddly defined.

In general, it often seems even questionable to me towards the other side though - ie, a vehicle gets salvaged by insurance in a theft when it seems like the actual $ amount of what was (presumably - I guess you can never really trust a seller's word) damaged during the theft doesn't really jive with what it takes to hit that threshold by, I'm guessing, law. The "presumably" part obviously might be the culprit here ("So it got stolen but when I got it back, all it had was some mud on the mats, but my insurance company salvaged it...I swear everything else is OEM / undamaged!"), but do you have any experience with insurance companies being a bit quick on the trigger in this respect?

As Du Volant > StevenG
08/14/2014 at 14:26

It happens ALL. THE. TIME. to rentals. They have their own in-house repair shops that specialize in putting the car back on the road as quickly and cheaply as possible. 9/10 times when we get a car from the auction that has horrendous crash damage repaired very poorly, it's a rental- and the Carfaxes are ALWAYS clean.

We generally try to fill our lots with trade-ins and avoid buying at the auction whenever possible, but sometimes if you find yourself in a situation where you don't have a single sedan under 40k miles on your lot, you gotta do what you gotta do.

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 14:27

When I bought my GLI, I learned something interesting...
BY LAW, dealers in Washington state need to provide you with a CarFax of the vehicle you are buying if it's used, and give you time to read over it. I'm not sure if this is for CPO vehicles only, or if it applies to used cars as well

drdude > As Du Volant
08/14/2014 at 14:27

But it does not show any of the damage.... and that was the point of the whole story.

Diesel > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 14:28

I had a Nissan Titan from Avis that was the worst truck ever. Totally killed the brand for me aside from Skyline cars. My favorite rental car was a Cobalt SS. I could do FWD burnouts in that thing all day long.

StevenG > As Du Volant
08/14/2014 at 14:28

Which is why the law needs to force the disclosure of that kind of info. If you know the car was in a wreck at some point just looking at it, you should have to disclose that. You should of course be able to go after the seller for failure to disclose something so obvious.

Jacque8080 > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 14:29

But you can still determine if a car is really "new" by the mileage, regardless of what has been repaired? If it has 6 or 12 miles on the clock, then I can assume it is new. And do the inspection anyway. But if it has 50+ miles, I can assume it has been driven where anything could have happened. And again, get it inspected anyway.

SteveLehto > PJ
08/14/2014 at 14:30

The law spells out which parts can be replaced without counting toward the damage cap. I'd be a little bothered that all of the windows were smashed out. How long were they out and how well were they replaced? How much broken glass is inside the doors and the defroster ducts?

My experience is more that the insurance companies are SLOW to total a vehicle. I've spoken to people with nice cars that look totaled to people like you and me and the insurance company says, "Great! We found someone who says they can fix your car!" Often, fixing = creating a frankensteinish mess out of the remains of the car.

And again, a lot of games get played with whether a vehicle ought to be totaled/salvaged or not. Those cars often get sold to different states where the laws are - shall we say - a little more forgiving.

StevenG > Jacque8080
08/14/2014 at 14:31

What about 25 miles?
My current "new" car had 25 miles. 5 of them from my test drive.

SteveLehto > Jacque8080
08/14/2014 at 14:32

Seriously, how many people will have a new car inspected? Meanwhile, dealers often trade new vehicles back and forth. You will often see them with a hundred or two hundred miles on them.

My real point here though is that this kind of thing is rare. It just goes to show you how crazy the laws are, especially when special-interest groups write them.

cardriverx > Diesel
08/14/2014 at 14:33

Yeah... you don't want to buy a rental car that I have had. Just saying.

As Du Volant > StevenG
08/14/2014 at 14:33

Unfortunately you often can't tell if the car was in a wreck or just had paint work done. We can often look at a car and tell that a couple panels were painted for example- but if we didn't see it before it was fixed, it's often really hard to tell if it was in an accident or if it was just keyed.

Cars like the rental example I mentioned above, we don't even bother retailing them. If the car is a basket case it goes (back to) the auction.

We generally try to be up front about the condition of all our cars but there is no system that's 100% perfect- and if a car was fixed really, really well sometimes it takes a body man just to spot the repairs. Of course our customers never tell us about it when they're trading the car in- the vast majority of the time they only tell us if a trade-in was wrecked is if the damage is still there or the Carfax says it was wrecked.

SteveLehto > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power
08/14/2014 at 14:34

Really? Does the law specify Carfax the brand? If it did, it would obviously be a boon for them. I know that Carfax has done a great job of getting people to demand them - now if only Carfax actually got all the facts on the cars they reported on . . . .

Jacque8080 > Diesel
08/14/2014 at 14:34

Not all. But I rented a Hyundai Sonota a while back. And the first thing I did was race by friend who took me to the rental car place. It was when they first came out with the manual gear selection for the automatic transmissions. When I turned it in, it didn't shift smoothly anymore. It may or may not be related to my normal driving pattern, which sometimes includes 3,000 RPM launches and shifts at redline.

SteveLehto > Diesel
08/14/2014 at 14:35

Which is another reason we don't want to buy a former rental (but boy are they fun to drive!)

StevenG > As Du Volant
08/14/2014 at 14:35

I was assuming it was not straight. Like my car. The tell tale sign to me was the dash being close to one door than the other when the doors closed.

deekster_caddy > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power
08/14/2014 at 14:36

Wow, carfax provided by LAW? Must have been some quality lobbying from Carfax that month! Impressive! Considering how useless most Carfax reports are when it comes to the important things, that law is a real pity.

Stephen > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 14:37

I get a feeling that many, many new cars are damaged simply from regular handling during transportation. If a new car is scratched when being unloaded from a ship, and the scratch is repaired by the manufacturer at port delivery, are you saying that car should no longer be eligible to be sold as new? If a car is damaged or reworked at the final assembly plant but passes all quality checks, should that car no longer be eligible to be sold as new? Where is the line drawn?

iexiak > Diesel
08/14/2014 at 14:40

Had a Kia Forte (I think) rental that peeled out everywhere it went. It also took 10 minutes to get to 60...It peeled out because the tires were bald...

Another rental was an Impala though. It actually convinced me to look at one the next time I'm buying a car. Not enough to guarantee a purchase, but it peaked my interest. The thing was loaded though, satellite radio and all. V8 and super comfy seats even! Not at all what I was expecting to get from a rental.

gizmoflyer > Chteelers
08/14/2014 at 14:41

Yep. Check for over spray, factory paint on/inside the screws that hold the fenders on (marred up if theyve been taken off), paint on underside of the hood match (look under the hood mat), polishing compound in body panels, panel gap, the list goes on and on as to what you can look for.

Also, get into the floor board and stick your head up by the pedals and look under the dash. Good way to check for flood damage as you can see rust, water lines (highwater mark), etc and its an area that usually isnt addressed at all when people try to redo a flood car.

Zzzzzzzzzz > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 14:41

Jeremy Clarkson proves this point. A rental car is the fastest car you could ever drive.

Levi > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 14:42

Is that true? I have bought a number of new cars and never have I seen one with over 25-30 miles. I've never bought one with more than 20. I would consider a car with 200 miles a demo and expect a requisite discount.

Jacque8080 > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 14:42

I agree with you. I am dealing with a new law in TN that keep cities from building their own fiber network.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/20…

http://www.ibtimes.com/marsha-blackbu…

It is time to rock the vote.

Jacque8080 > StevenG
08/14/2014 at 14:43

I have nothing. Let's change the law.

gizmoflyer > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 14:43

People need to be careful about carfax. Are they nice to have for a bit more information? Sure, but they dont tell anywhere near all of the story. You cant put much trust in them.

At the very least, a car can get crushed, fixed right away, tossed on the lot...and even if the wreck was reported its a high likelihood it wouldnt make it on the carfax before it was bought.

As Du Volant > StevenG
08/14/2014 at 14:44

Wow. That's pretty intense.

The only time we ever sell cars where the body is obviously not straight is when it's a discount "AS-IS, WHERE-IS" special, and we disclose EVERY issue we know about the car (including the body condition) and have the customer sign it.

SteveLehto > Stephen
08/14/2014 at 14:44

I never said that. I just don't think people realize what the law allows.

SteveLehto > Levi
08/14/2014 at 14:46

I have seen new cars up into the hundreds. Usually from a dealer trade and then some time spent on a lot (or vice versa). I agree with you that I would rather see one with 5 miles on it.

n54 & s38 > Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again.
08/14/2014 at 14:46

Figures. I was checking out the new GTI in there a couple weeks ago. First off, that dealership looks old and tiny as fuck. Also looks shady to me.

SteveLehto > gizmoflyer
08/14/2014 at 14:47

And Carfax does not get all the information out there. Some states don't report the official information and many accidents don't get reported.

StevenG > As Du Volant
08/14/2014 at 14:47

I was rather unhappy at the time, but I kept it 5 years and honestly got a decent deal for it when I traded it in. Mostly because it was worth so little.

Now we are looking at replacing my wife's car and I am trying to remember all this stuff in preparation. That thing is near worthless I think due to rust, but when we bought she only had a learners permit and I knew she would ding it up.

Levi > Miata2016GT
08/14/2014 at 14:47

Of course, it could have been the dealer you were trading it to lying. I had a trade-in once where Dealer A claimed damage to a door, paint thickness, etc, and offered way below value for it. I knew for a fact it hadn't been wrecked and they were lying. They wouldn't budge. Went to a different dealer, $2500 better offer for the trade-in, no mention of anything. Nasty review on Dealer A's google presence.

Stephen > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 14:49

I know, I am just curious as to the application of the law. Manufacturers do not have to disclose damage but dealers do? Just asking the question.

Miata2016GT > Levi
08/14/2014 at 14:49

They did the test with me present, and I saw the results first hand. They were actually telling the truth, hard as it is to believe.

Miata2016GT > Miata2016GT
08/14/2014 at 14:50

I should have also said... I was trading it on my now sold 2005 Miata, LOL

DConsorti > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 14:50

Damn Steve! this one is evil!!!

Over here, we don't even have a law that oblige the dealer to inform you of the body damage...

But... (there's always a but!!), if you discover (like in the history you told), the buyer CAN sue the dealer, in the same basis that I explained in last post (ocult vice).

This is hard, but depending on your alegations and the proves you make, you can make the dealer buy the car back.

As Du Volant > StevenG
08/14/2014 at 14:51

Always have a mechanic (outside of the dealership) inspect it. Even if it's only a couple years old.

Levi > Miata2016GT
08/14/2014 at 14:52

Ahh, that's good then. For me, when I balked, the sales guy just said "The results are the results, and that's the price." Short visit.

PJ > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 14:52

Gotcha. I was always wondering if there was some strange benefit to them salvaging a car vs. repairing it, and if they could easily work out the situation either way (whichever was more advantageous to them) via adjusters and the shops that they work with. "Seat was slashed - yeah, the only replacements our certified shop can get in are $10k a seat. We're gonna have to total that one out."

Straightsix9904 > Chteelers
08/14/2014 at 14:52

I think the diference is that on a car lot you have a reasonable expectatoin to be told the "truth," when it comes to an individual on the side of the road you are more suspecious and examining of all they say.

SteveLehto > Stephen
08/14/2014 at 14:53

I'm sorry - I missed the nuance. This law speaks to the dealer only. I guess if the vehicle was damaged by the MFR before delivery, that would be between the DLR and the MFR. I have some great stories (for later posts) about stuff done to specific cars which my clients bought - where this law did not protect the dealer (even after they thought it would).

gizmoflyer > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 14:54

So, so true. I was the office manager for a small auto brokerage for a couple of years. Its amazing how many people take a carfax report as being the be all end all of truth about the car.

SteveLehto > PJ
08/14/2014 at 14:56

Insurance companies will get very creative before they let something like that get in their way. I've heard of them shopping around after several shops deemed a vehicle totaled. They just move on down the list. Think about that - their 3rd or 4th choice said it's fixable when the other shops said it wasn't.

StevenG > As Du Volant
08/14/2014 at 14:58

Yeah, I will be doing that with this purchase, if we do not get a brand new one or CPO.

Any reason to do it with a CPO? I thought the warranty should be enough.

Maddox Kay > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 15:02

There's an easy way to avoid buying a rental car, at least in America. Make sure it has the right number of pedals.

Miata2016GT > Levi
08/14/2014 at 15:02

It would be for me too, and trust me I was ready to go ape-shit on the dealer until they showed me. So... I really should have known what the IL laws were/are at the time. I should have sued BMW/Mini for not disclosing the damage prior to delivery. However, they got their "hit" on it too... that car, in 1.5 years, had $13,612 in warranty claims. That doesn't include the 9 road-side flat beds either when the little f***er broke down.

As Du Volant > StevenG
08/14/2014 at 15:03

I wouldn't be too worried about CPO, their standards are quite high and it's manufacturer-backed should anything go wrong.

Just make sure it's actual factual certified and not "Crazy Bill's Used Cars & Hotdog Stand Certified." CPO's can only be sold by a dealer that sells the same brand new.

gigaparsecs > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 15:03

About twenty-years ago, one of the tabloid shows did a piece on the new-car damaged and repaired before first sale by dealer.

A pretty young African-American girl purchased a new purple Nissan Sentra from a dealer in Richmond Vitginia where the disclosure limit at the time was $350.

After a short period of ownership (and I believe some quality issues) it was found out the left rear quarter of the car was replaced. When lifting the trunk mat you could see a seam of welds 18" inward of the quarter panel sweep over to the C-pillar.

StevenG > As Du Volant
08/14/2014 at 15:07

Yeah, in that case to the mechanic it goes.

Whatever you do, do not get the CPO Hotdogs.

protodad > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 15:10

"A dealer in Michigan can sit quietly and sell you a formerly damaged NEW vehicle without disclosing - based on this law - so long as the damages are limited to those above. I just did the hypothetical with the rental history so I could run the table with all the possibilities."

Worked at a body shop for a while in CA and you would be amazed at how often a job that would cost someone off the street $2000 would only cost a dealer on a "new car" $1000. Of course the next time a piece of trim needed to be replaced on the next new car it would also cost $1000.

New cars show up to the lot on a truck with damage from loading and then get damaged worse in unloading. It is a complete racket and unbelievable that it is allowed to go on.

protodad > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power
08/14/2014 at 15:12

I have seen the "carfax" report you are referring to. It is a truncated version that hardly reveals any useful information.

SteveLehto > protodad
08/14/2014 at 15:15

Thanks for the comment. I have heard from others that this is the case (and simple human nature, if you think about it).

And yes, a lot of bad things happen between the factory and the dealership while those cars are on those car haulers (or going on or off them). I've seen plenty of that too.

econobiker > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 15:17

Remember that some rental car companies got spanked when it turned out the companies were obmitting the curtain side/roof airbags that were standard equipment on direct-to- consumer vehicles in order to save the fleet costs.

econobiker > Levi
08/14/2014 at 15:22

Dealers still have had cars with sub 50 miles on them get wrecked by falling off the delivery truck, crashed by a test driver, or being severely hit in the dealer sales lot, yet repaired and sold as new.

Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 15:23

My dad went in to buy a 525i 5-speed with a particular color combo and wouldn't compromise, but it would take a while to ship it cross-country. The dealer tried to mark down the value of the 528e he was trading in because they said it had been repainted; he owned it since new and had never been in an accident during his ownership. The car above his new 525i leaked brake fluid whilst on the trailer and destroyed the paint, but the dealer would happily repaint it for him. Bzzzt - wrong answer. They found him another one...

Chteelers > Straightsix9904
08/14/2014 at 15:24

See, I would assume the exact opposite. Joe Blow just wants to sell his car at a reasonable price, so he can go buy something else. The dealership is in the business of selling cars to make a profit. The dealership has a financial obligation to demand a higher price, or conceal depreciating info.

Levi > econobiker
08/14/2014 at 15:25

Oh, I have no doubt that all kinds of shady sh*t goes on. I just find it odd that, damage or not, someone would buy a "new" car with 200 miles on it.

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > n54 & s38
08/14/2014 at 15:26

It does look tiny.

econobiker > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 15:32

"Program car" used to ~infer~ that the vehicles had been used by the employees of that brand car manufacturer and then turned back in. Certified Pre-Owned is pretty much that now especially if all of the service was done by the manufacturers SAE mechanics staffed captive shop.

I know that Nissan in TN (Smyrna, Decherd, and Franklin NA HQ) has an employee lease program that allows the full time employees and their direct family to drive a new Nissan/Infinity for a set amount of time/mileage while paying a lease fee per month and getting all regular maintenance and repairs for free in order to preserve the value of the vehicle as a CPO for future sale.

Chteelers > gizmoflyer
08/14/2014 at 15:33

Carfax is a valuable tool, but still just a tool. I would bet that the people who put 100% faith in a Carfax are the same people who blindly follow their GPS directions without checking the entire route first - ending up lost in BFE with no reception.

Straightsix9904 > Chteelers
08/14/2014 at 15:33

Yes, but a dealership has a reputation, and if their reputation of selling cars is no good, their business is going to suffer. I would think that if you bought a crappy car off "Bob," and you told all your friends about how "Bob" screwed you over, it would be basically moot.

DBM > Chteelers
08/14/2014 at 15:35

How do you look inside a body panel?

gizmoflyer > Chteelers
08/14/2014 at 15:42

Thats what Carfax's commercials want them to think...that they should have 100% faith in them. Basically saying "Hey, if you ask for a car fax, you should be proud of yourself for doing your due diligence." Its scary.

That being said, we ran one of virtually ever car we looked at to buy at the auto brokerage I was at. It was a different service called Auto Check, but the same thing really. But that was just part of the process that included having inspectors at the auctions look over and test the cars, a bunch of other stuff we could do in person and always having a paint meter handy.

I wish paint meters were cheaper, Id love to have one personally.

SteveLehto > econobiker
08/14/2014 at 15:43

I think that was the intent - to give it a name that would sound like something innocuous people were familiar with.

ae86wej > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 15:48

"I will point out one small item from this story where our buyer screwed up: If he had looked closely at the title to the vehicle before he bought it – the previous title – it would have shown the owner as being a rental car company. But in the blizzard of paperwork you see at the sales vortex (often the five minutes before closing which somehow is the only time they can get you in to seal the deal) these things can be overlooked."

Or you know do what every one else does and look at the CarFax. If only they had some sort of commercial, maybe with a adorable cartoon looking fox. Maybe he could interrupt people in the process of buying used cars and say something like "show me the CarFax!"

SteveLehto > ae86wej
08/14/2014 at 15:50

Which helps you on the one point (the former rental) but does not help you with the other stuff.

fintail > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 15:53

$750 to have a few panels repainted? In what decade? Probably not painted very well for that money - but I know some people don't pick up on details.

Diesel > iexiak
08/14/2014 at 15:55

The Ford Fusion was a great rental car, really made me believe they were going in the right direction. This was 2008 or 09.

SteveLehto > fintail
08/14/2014 at 15:55

Maybe I could have written it that there was "bodywork done to several panels" or some such . . .

ae86wej > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 15:57

If there is a police report it goes on the CarFax. I'm assuming that since the police recovered it there would be a police report on it. Every time a car is titled the DMV reports it to carfax, some states that do emissions testing put that on the CarFax. Not everything gets reported to CarFax but it does give good insight. The $36 it costs to run a report for yourself can save you a bunch of money and a headache later on.

SteveLehto > ae86wej
08/14/2014 at 16:01

You think that every police report generated in America today which mentions a car will be reported to Carfax?

ae86wej > SteveLehto
08/14/2014 at 16:30

When its in an accident or stolen and the police need to document the VIN number of a vehicle then yes. Any time there is a stolen vehicle or accident there is a police report on it, the report then gets attached to the VIN number, these reports also happen to be public information. Not positive but I'm pretty confident that CarFax doesn't rely solely on the good intentions of car owners who have been in an accident or had their vehicle stolen (I'm pretty sure the average person knows just as well as dealers that these type of things decreases the value of their vehicles) to report it, and most likely use these public systems to at least partially generate their report to give buyers insight. I don't think CarFax is 100% accurate (in fact if you move, and title a vehicle in a new state it will show it as another owner) but it sure does give some pretty good insight to the vehicles history. Another way to check if there has been a serious accident is to check for panel gaps, when a body panel is replaced it doesn't usually line perfectly, you can also check under the hood, manufactures put stickers on structural parts a good rule of thumb is if there isn't a sticker there is a good chance it has been replaced. Those are two things I can tell you 99% of car buyers don't do. I absolutely agree with you though, its important to know the laws in your state, its also important to know that there are resources available to you. Also the original point for me mentioning the CarFax at all was due to your comment about only being able to know if a car was a rental by the title, but yes it does show other stuff as well.

Kayone74 > Chteelers
08/14/2014 at 16:34

carfax doesn't tell the whole story as work in body shops done cash out of pocket and no insurance company involvement can often not show up on a Carfax. For every background check method you think is foolproof, there is a way around it and the seller of a car will take any measure to ensure the maximal future resale value of his car if he knows how.